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	<title>Comments for Symposium Blog</title>
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	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 13 Feb 2012 23:53:32 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>Comment on Fandom Makes the Front Pages by Alex</title>
		<link>http://symposium.transformativeworks.org/2012/02/fandom-makes-the-front-pages/comment-page-1/#comment-40797</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Feb 2012 23:53:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://symposium.transformativeworks.org/?p=383#comment-40797</guid>
		<description>The consent point is so frustrating and important, and I like the way you talk about it here.  I&#039;m also very concerned about the representation of Nikki Wood&#039;s storyline, and I have deep reservations about the stereotypes at work there.  I agree that it&#039;s important to &quot;work out what conversation the text is really allowing us to have,&quot; as you say.  But when all is said and done, I think that the Issue is pressing enough that I&#039;m thrilled to have the opportunity to talk about it in the context of fandom, even though it&#039;s revealing some of that context&#039;s surprising (to me) social politics.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The consent point is so frustrating and important, and I like the way you talk about it here.  I&#8217;m also very concerned about the representation of Nikki Wood&#8217;s storyline, and I have deep reservations about the stereotypes at work there.  I agree that it&#8217;s important to &#8220;work out what conversation the text is really allowing us to have,&#8221; as you say.  But when all is said and done, I think that the Issue is pressing enough that I&#8217;m thrilled to have the opportunity to talk about it in the context of fandom, even though it&#8217;s revealing some of that context&#8217;s surprising (to me) social politics.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Fandom Makes the Front Pages by Quinara</title>
		<link>http://symposium.transformativeworks.org/2012/02/fandom-makes-the-front-pages/comment-page-1/#comment-40768</link>
		<dc:creator>Quinara</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Feb 2012 18:39:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://symposium.transformativeworks.org/?p=383#comment-40768</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;However, I think that there is a serious distinction to be made between sensationalist marketing and an incitement to public conversation about a currently-contentious political issue, particularly one which lies at the center of the feminism that has, since the beginning, informed the concept of Buffy the Vampire Slayer.&lt;/em&gt;

Hmm...  I&#039;m not sure about this, at least in this specific context.  To me such a dichotomy depends on the idea that feminism and other socially progressive movements can&#039;t be commercialised, which isn&#039;t the case.  Feminism has become a central part of Buffy&#039;s brand over the years, and while an abortion storyline might not make Joss as much money as some other hypothetical venture, it&#039;s a controversial issue that makes sense with the public perception of what the franchise is about, perfectly placed to hook a waning readership back into the series and its supposed USP.

That&#039;s not to say that I think the commercialisation means that a valuable conversation is impossible.  At the same time, given how the issue of whether Buffy consented or was able to consent to the sex that made her pregnant has so far been completely ignored, I find it difficult not to think that Whedon has carefully selected which Issue he wants to focus on, rather than approaching his work with an uncompromising feminist perspective.  Further to that, the implication that Buffy is choosing to terminate her pregnancy because of her lacking finances, rather than a lack of desire to become a mother, seems to me to shift the conversation from one about sexual equality to one about the ethics of single motherhood (cf. the rather thinly-veiled metaphor about Nikki Wood, the mother who was physically(?) unable to stop working for her son, who ended up dead and resented).

As a feminist, I think it&#039;s good to have this conversation in the mainstream media, in the broad strokes that it&#039;s being painted, but as a fan I think it&#039;s always important to work out what conversation the text is really allowing us to have.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>However, I think that there is a serious distinction to be made between sensationalist marketing and an incitement to public conversation about a currently-contentious political issue, particularly one which lies at the center of the feminism that has, since the beginning, informed the concept of Buffy the Vampire Slayer.</em></p>
<p>Hmm&#8230;  I&#8217;m not sure about this, at least in this specific context.  To me such a dichotomy depends on the idea that feminism and other socially progressive movements can&#8217;t be commercialised, which isn&#8217;t the case.  Feminism has become a central part of Buffy&#8217;s brand over the years, and while an abortion storyline might not make Joss as much money as some other hypothetical venture, it&#8217;s a controversial issue that makes sense with the public perception of what the franchise is about, perfectly placed to hook a waning readership back into the series and its supposed USP.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s not to say that I think the commercialisation means that a valuable conversation is impossible.  At the same time, given how the issue of whether Buffy consented or was able to consent to the sex that made her pregnant has so far been completely ignored, I find it difficult not to think that Whedon has carefully selected which Issue he wants to focus on, rather than approaching his work with an uncompromising feminist perspective.  Further to that, the implication that Buffy is choosing to terminate her pregnancy because of her lacking finances, rather than a lack of desire to become a mother, seems to me to shift the conversation from one about sexual equality to one about the ethics of single motherhood (cf. the rather thinly-veiled metaphor about Nikki Wood, the mother who was physically(?) unable to stop working for her son, who ended up dead and resented).</p>
<p>As a feminist, I think it&#8217;s good to have this conversation in the mainstream media, in the broad strokes that it&#8217;s being painted, but as a fan I think it&#8217;s always important to work out what conversation the text is really allowing us to have.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Living in a Den of Thieves (Notes Towards a Post on Big Content) by Dana Sterling</title>
		<link>http://symposium.transformativeworks.org/2012/02/living-in-a-den-of-thieves-notes-towards-a-post-on-big-content/comment-page-1/#comment-39801</link>
		<dc:creator>Dana Sterling</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Feb 2012 00:35:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://symposium.transformativeworks.org/?p=380#comment-39801</guid>
		<description>Yeah, it&#039;s hard to picture some big corporations as Pro-Artist when you start thinking about the whole &quot;work for hire&quot; thing that happens when an artist goes to work for a corporation.....

To me, this entire area is about compromise. As a writer, I don&#039;t want people stealing my stuff and I want to get paid. As a fan writer, I want to be able to keep enjoying fan fiction. There has to be room for both, and I think there actually is!

And copyright was invented to expire for a reason! Your point about Vergil and Homer is well taken. 

But this whole thing about the digital era and technology changing everything -- wow. Remember the Sony Betamax case? Remember how the musicians unions and the radio stations hated the idea of recorded music at first? Technology is always such a challenge to the law.

I thought danah boyd had a great post about all this last week.

Thanks for the post.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, it&#8217;s hard to picture some big corporations as Pro-Artist when you start thinking about the whole &#8220;work for hire&#8221; thing that happens when an artist goes to work for a corporation&#8230;..</p>
<p>To me, this entire area is about compromise. As a writer, I don&#8217;t want people stealing my stuff and I want to get paid. As a fan writer, I want to be able to keep enjoying fan fiction. There has to be room for both, and I think there actually is!</p>
<p>And copyright was invented to expire for a reason! Your point about Vergil and Homer is well taken. </p>
<p>But this whole thing about the digital era and technology changing everything &#8212; wow. Remember the Sony Betamax case? Remember how the musicians unions and the radio stations hated the idea of recorded music at first? Technology is always such a challenge to the law.</p>
<p>I thought danah boyd had a great post about all this last week.</p>
<p>Thanks for the post.</p>
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		<title>Comment on In Search of the Hybrid Economy by Andrea H.</title>
		<link>http://symposium.transformativeworks.org/2012/01/in-search-of-the-hybrid-economy/comment-page-1/#comment-38358</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrea H.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jan 2012 22:38:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://symposium.transformativeworks.org/?p=372#comment-38358</guid>
		<description>*nods* That&#039;s a really good question, actually! I can think of at least a few fan writers who have made the backstage work front and center, but it&#039;s definitely the norm that it&#039;s all kept behind the curtains, as it were. 

I saw a post on Tumblr the other day about how many fan artists drastically undercharge compared to pro rates for prints, commissions, etc, which I mention by way of wondering whether fan art is closer to a hybrid economy than anything else right now. On the other hand, I can&#039;t think of a way that a fan artform like vids could ever be part of a hybrid economy short of a total revolution in intellectual property laws.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>*nods* That&#8217;s a really good question, actually! I can think of at least a few fan writers who have made the backstage work front and center, but it&#8217;s definitely the norm that it&#8217;s all kept behind the curtains, as it were. </p>
<p>I saw a post on Tumblr the other day about how many fan artists drastically undercharge compared to pro rates for prints, commissions, etc, which I mention by way of wondering whether fan art is closer to a hybrid economy than anything else right now. On the other hand, I can&#8217;t think of a way that a fan artform like vids could ever be part of a hybrid economy short of a total revolution in intellectual property laws.</p>
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		<title>Comment on In Search of the Hybrid Economy by Andrea H.</title>
		<link>http://symposium.transformativeworks.org/2012/01/in-search-of-the-hybrid-economy/comment-page-1/#comment-38355</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrea H.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jan 2012 22:33:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://symposium.transformativeworks.org/?p=372#comment-38355</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;I find it hard to imagine a more mainstream, marked-oriented kind of fic without compromising some of the qualities that makes the genre what it is.&lt;/em&gt;

Mm, I think you&#039;re right here, though I think it&#039;s important to recognize that part of what makes fic fic is the ways that the things it does--queer relationships, kink and porn, to name just two things that are much harder to find in commercial publishing--are shaped by current market and societal paradigms. So if the mainstream changes, which I think it is, I&#039;d expect fic to change too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>I find it hard to imagine a more mainstream, marked-oriented kind of fic without compromising some of the qualities that makes the genre what it is.</em></p>
<p>Mm, I think you&#8217;re right here, though I think it&#8217;s important to recognize that part of what makes fic fic is the ways that the things it does&#8211;queer relationships, kink and porn, to name just two things that are much harder to find in commercial publishing&#8211;are shaped by current market and societal paradigms. So if the mainstream changes, which I think it is, I&#8217;d expect fic to change too.</p>
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		<title>Comment on In Search of the Hybrid Economy by Niki M</title>
		<link>http://symposium.transformativeworks.org/2012/01/in-search-of-the-hybrid-economy/comment-page-1/#comment-38154</link>
		<dc:creator>Niki M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jan 2012 04:33:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://symposium.transformativeworks.org/?p=372#comment-38154</guid>
		<description>very interesting post! I do have to suggest that some of these problems may be limited to the textual fan works, as the visual fan creations are readily available for purchase through sites like deviantart and society6; fan-created clothing and other assorted merchandise also seems to be abundant through a range of sources, though yes, these sometimes get hit by cease-and-desists. These creators have followings similar to fic writers and there is often an overlap, but the fan economy as a whole seems more ready to accept paying for something that takes obvious artistic and technical skill, such as a digital painting, than they do for a written fan fiction. I wonder if in this instance the fannish idea of &quot;anyone can write fic, anyone can participate if they want&quot; is running against them, and downplaying the amount of time and skill required to write good fic - the backstage work put into writing is practically invisible to those who aren&#039;t engaged in it themselves.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>very interesting post! I do have to suggest that some of these problems may be limited to the textual fan works, as the visual fan creations are readily available for purchase through sites like deviantart and society6; fan-created clothing and other assorted merchandise also seems to be abundant through a range of sources, though yes, these sometimes get hit by cease-and-desists. These creators have followings similar to fic writers and there is often an overlap, but the fan economy as a whole seems more ready to accept paying for something that takes obvious artistic and technical skill, such as a digital painting, than they do for a written fan fiction. I wonder if in this instance the fannish idea of &#8220;anyone can write fic, anyone can participate if they want&#8221; is running against them, and downplaying the amount of time and skill required to write good fic &#8211; the backstage work put into writing is practically invisible to those who aren&#8217;t engaged in it themselves.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Teaching Fandom, Revisited by Dana Sterling</title>
		<link>http://symposium.transformativeworks.org/2012/01/teaching-fandom-revisited/comment-page-1/#comment-38106</link>
		<dc:creator>Dana Sterling</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Jan 2012 18:04:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://symposium.transformativeworks.org/2012/01/teaching-fandom-revisited/#comment-38106</guid>
		<description>I love your examples of what they made. I forget now where I originally read this, but one thing about fan culture that makes it so fun and accessible is that it is totally an AMATEUR culture in all senses of the word.

People somehow are freer to not compare their own work to all the professional, polished stuff they see on tv or in museums or hear on the radio.

They can make their own art their own way; the fun not necessarily in the &quot;objective quality&quot; of it, but in the process, in the participation, in the, as you point out, the love.

Thanks and good luck!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I love your examples of what they made. I forget now where I originally read this, but one thing about fan culture that makes it so fun and accessible is that it is totally an AMATEUR culture in all senses of the word.</p>
<p>People somehow are freer to not compare their own work to all the professional, polished stuff they see on tv or in museums or hear on the radio.</p>
<p>They can make their own art their own way; the fun not necessarily in the &#8220;objective quality&#8221; of it, but in the process, in the participation, in the, as you point out, the love.</p>
<p>Thanks and good luck!</p>
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		<title>Comment on Comiket as a market for fanworks by Mark McHarry</title>
		<link>http://symposium.transformativeworks.org/2011/10/comiket-as-a-market-for-fanworks/comment-page-1/#comment-37470</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark McHarry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Jan 2012 22:51:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://symposium.transformativeworks.org/?p=324#comment-37470</guid>
		<description>Hi Nele and everyone,

A few comments:

&gt;&gt; on the whole, there’s a tacit understanding that the fans who buy and sell dojinshi are the industry’s biggest supporters and should be left alone.

Publishers scout for new talent at Comike, and some established mangaka publish their own (often sought-after) dōjinshi.

&gt;&gt; Comiket itself doesn’t host panels as far as I can tell, but its organizers seem to take part in panels held during other manga- or entertainment industry-related events quite often and report on those in publications like the catalog.

There is also the Comike Fringe group held (in Japanese) during Comike. The meeting I went to was very informative, with presentations by researchers, scholars, and critics.

&gt;&gt;I’ll try to find out how they count people.

At PCA in April 2011, in presenting preliminary data from a survey held in August 2010 by a team from The University of Tokyo and Tokyo Institute of Technology, the presenter, Nakamura Jin, that visits were &quot;total combined attendance over 3 days&quot;. So if I were to attend each of the three days, that would count as three visits. See also this report from Mainichi Shimbun on Anime News Network: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2011-08-14/attendance-dropped-by-20000-at-comic-market-80

&gt;&gt; Japanese copyright law forbids the sale of unauthorized derivative works, and most scholars and fans agree that what takes place at Comiket is probably illegal.
&gt;&gt; The policy that is actually applied is quite different in some (not all, of course) areas.
Mikhail quoting Mehra:
&gt;&gt; “Japanese copyright infringement damage awards are so low that it pays to infringe.”

This may also speak to different ideas about laws and the rights deriving therefrom. Historically copyright was not a concern in Japan at all; that changed only in the Meiji period with the adoption of Enlightenment-derived legal and other systems. I wonder if this pre-modern attitude toward ownership carried over into the modern era.

BTW a cool resource on site is the International Desk. They&#039;ve been amazingly helpful to me.

Gomen nasai (sorry!) for only now starting to read this blog. Hope to see some of you at Comike.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Nele and everyone,</p>
<p>A few comments:</p>
<p>&gt;&gt; on the whole, there’s a tacit understanding that the fans who buy and sell dojinshi are the industry’s biggest supporters and should be left alone.</p>
<p>Publishers scout for new talent at Comike, and some established mangaka publish their own (often sought-after) dōjinshi.</p>
<p>&gt;&gt; Comiket itself doesn’t host panels as far as I can tell, but its organizers seem to take part in panels held during other manga- or entertainment industry-related events quite often and report on those in publications like the catalog.</p>
<p>There is also the Comike Fringe group held (in Japanese) during Comike. The meeting I went to was very informative, with presentations by researchers, scholars, and critics.</p>
<p>&gt;&gt;I’ll try to find out how they count people.</p>
<p>At PCA in April 2011, in presenting preliminary data from a survey held in August 2010 by a team from The University of Tokyo and Tokyo Institute of Technology, the presenter, Nakamura Jin, that visits were &#8220;total combined attendance over 3 days&#8221;. So if I were to attend each of the three days, that would count as three visits. See also this report from Mainichi Shimbun on Anime News Network: <a href="http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2011-08-14/attendance-dropped-by-20000-at-comic-market-80" rel="nofollow">http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2011-08-14/attendance-dropped-by-20000-at-comic-market-80</a></p>
<p>&gt;&gt; Japanese copyright law forbids the sale of unauthorized derivative works, and most scholars and fans agree that what takes place at Comiket is probably illegal.<br />
&gt;&gt; The policy that is actually applied is quite different in some (not all, of course) areas.<br />
Mikhail quoting Mehra:<br />
&gt;&gt; “Japanese copyright infringement damage awards are so low that it pays to infringe.”</p>
<p>This may also speak to different ideas about laws and the rights deriving therefrom. Historically copyright was not a concern in Japan at all; that changed only in the Meiji period with the adoption of Enlightenment-derived legal and other systems. I wonder if this pre-modern attitude toward ownership carried over into the modern era.</p>
<p>BTW a cool resource on site is the International Desk. They&#8217;ve been amazingly helpful to me.</p>
<p>Gomen nasai (sorry!) for only now starting to read this blog. Hope to see some of you at Comike.</p>
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		<title>Comment on In Search of the Hybrid Economy by Nele Noppe</title>
		<link>http://symposium.transformativeworks.org/2012/01/in-search-of-the-hybrid-economy/comment-page-1/#comment-37269</link>
		<dc:creator>Nele Noppe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jan 2012 01:28:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://symposium.transformativeworks.org/?p=372#comment-37269</guid>
		<description>True. Changing laws requires broad support requires awareness.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>True. Changing laws requires broad support requires awareness.</p>
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		<title>Comment on In Search of the Hybrid Economy by Nele Noppe</title>
		<link>http://symposium.transformativeworks.org/2012/01/in-search-of-the-hybrid-economy/comment-page-1/#comment-37267</link>
		<dc:creator>Nele Noppe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jan 2012 01:27:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://symposium.transformativeworks.org/?p=372#comment-37267</guid>
		<description>It really is. And sometimes I think it&#039;s a shame that this company tolerance towards fanworks still has to be cast as a &quot;tolerance&quot;, because that&#039;s still implying that fans are doing something dodgy while companies graciously allow them to carry on. Which is not precisely how the relationship works in Japan in reality. But it&#039;s often described in that way in scholarship and any &quot;official&quot; communication, and legally speaking, the situation is pretty much like that. Fans do something illegal, companies do not sue, the Japanese government toes the international party line re:copyright. 

(I would dearly love to be a fly on the wall during a conversation between representatives of the Japanese and the US content industries.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It really is. And sometimes I think it&#8217;s a shame that this company tolerance towards fanworks still has to be cast as a &#8220;tolerance&#8221;, because that&#8217;s still implying that fans are doing something dodgy while companies graciously allow them to carry on. Which is not precisely how the relationship works in Japan in reality. But it&#8217;s often described in that way in scholarship and any &#8220;official&#8221; communication, and legally speaking, the situation is pretty much like that. Fans do something illegal, companies do not sue, the Japanese government toes the international party line re:copyright. </p>
<p>(I would dearly love to be a fly on the wall during a conversation between representatives of the Japanese and the US content industries.)</p>
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